When Caroline Summers joined her company as Sales Director, she wasn’t just stepping into a new role—she was stepping into a business that had just transitioned to employee ownership. Now, as CEO, she’s helped guide the company through its full five-and-a-half-year Employee Ownership Trust (EOT) journey, culminating in the final payment to the founder.
In this episode of the Exit Insights podcast, Caroline shares her experience of what it’s like to take over at a pivotal moment—and how open communication, honest leadership, and a commitment to culture can drive long-term success.
In this episode of the Exit Insights podcast, Caroline shares her experience of what it’s like to take over at a pivotal moment—and how open communication, honest leadership, and a commitment to culture can drive long-term success.
???? Key Insights:
• Valuation matters—but realism wins
The original company valuation was too high, especially after COVID hit. Caroline led a renegotiation, halving the price to ensure the business could survive and thrive.
• Teach people how the business works
From “town hall” meetings to quarterly financial updates, Caroline opened up the books and showed employees the nuts and bolts of business operations. That transparency paid off.
• Build trust through employee involvement
Creating an employee council and engaging staff in decisions helped shift the culture from “jobholders” to “owners.” The result? More ideas, better decisions, and a stronger company.
???? Actionable Tips:
• Involve employees early in the EOT process. Don’t wait until after the deal.
• Use transparent communication to demystify financials and strategy.
• Reassess valuations based on what the business can sustain—not what it once was.
???? Tools & Resources Mentioned:
• Employee Councils
• Quarterly Town Hall Meetings
• Direct-to-Employee Communication Channelsrly in the EOT process. Don’t wait until after the deal.
• Use transparent communication to demystify financials and strategy.
• Reassess valuations based on what the business can sustain—not what it once was.
???? Tools & Resources Mentioned:
• Employee Councils
• Quarterly Town Hall Meetings
• Direct-to-Employee Communication Channels
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (00:09)
Welcome to the podcast that’s dedicated to helping business owners prepare for exit so that you can then maximize the valuation of your business and exit on your terms. This is the Exit Insights podcast and we’re presented by Fabric. There’s a bit of a change there, which I’ll explain very shortly, maybe in an episode or two.
But more importantly, today I’m talking to Caroline Summers ⁓ and this is one that I’ve been waiting on and ⁓ planning for quite a while.
There’s some exciting news. So Caroline, we’re going to talk about what it’s like to actually be the person who’s been brought in to run a business that’s recently transitioned to EOT ownership. Welcome and let’s get stuck in.
Caroline Summers (00:52)
Great, thank you, Darryl. I’m really excited and goodness me, what a journey it’s been.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (00:57)
Well, well, absolutely. So we know by history that, you know, that journey, if you like, of a successful transition takes between five and seven years on average. I understand there’s some some fresh news hot, hot off the press that you guys have just made your final payment to the founders and the initial owners of the business.
Caroline Summers (01:19)
We have, yes, on Friday, we made our final payment. So we started our EOT journey back in 2019. And about five and a half years later, we have made that final payment. So it is a really exciting time for us, a fabulous time.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (01:36)
Well,
congratulations. And that was my next question was to find out how long it was. So bang in the middle of that average, ⁓ your average, slightly above average, because you’re really close to the five years, which I think most people would aim for if they possibly could. So let’s talk about that journey. What I think business owners and even employees are going to be really interested to hear is what’s the journey like?
Caroline Summers (01:42)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (02:05)
What was it like and what did you hear from the employees when they first heard about moving into EOT? What was it like as an outsider coming into a senior role in the leadership team for a business that had just transitioned to EOT? And then what was your involvement and what have you been up to for those last five and a half years?
Caroline Summers (02:24)
Goodness, okay, so shall we break it down? let’s… Absolutely.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (02:27)
Let’s start at the beginning, shall we? And so we get some sort of structure here that will be good for me,
at least anyway. You came into the business, ⁓ if it transitioned, just after it went to EOT?
Caroline Summers (02:39)
Yeah,
I did. So I joined, so the company transitioned in August of 2019 because at the time the original founder, was fast approaching 80 and thought, you know what, I’ve been doing this for a long time now. I kind of, I kind of want to think about getting out and fishing and perhaps reading a novel or two as we are in selling books. And he was trying to find, you know, the best solution for the company and obviously for himself as well. So.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (03:07)
Yep.
Caroline Summers (03:08)
I joined the company just a month later after the company had transitioned towards employee ownership. So it was, yeah. Yeah.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (03:17)
Okay, right at the very beginning. And
so I’m guessing, you know, these things don’t happen overnight. You must have been talking to the owner during that transition period.
Caroline Summers (03:26)
Yeah.
So I did, I started speaking to the owner and to the current board about two months before the transition. But to me, it was all, you know, I’d heard of obviously employee ownership and have heard of John Lewis at the time who were the best known, but it was goodness, what does this mean? And what does this mean, you know, in my role and my future at the company? So during that period, I did a lot of homework to sort of try and get my head around, okay, what does this mean?
What do I need to think about in terms of taking the company forward with this new kind of role? So it was a really exciting time for us.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (04:04)
And did you have, what were your What were your thoughts around this ownership structure of an EOT?
Caroline Summers (04:09)
Yeah.
I think one of my big concerns was how the staff were going to take it and how those external customers were going to take it. Because back in 2019, employee ownership was still a reasonably new thing and it was certainly very UK centric. Now, our company, are book wholesalers and distributors and the majority of our customers are international.
In my head, I’m trying to think, okay, how can we explain this model of ownership to all of our international customers, but whilst maintaining that we’ve got all of the staff and the team on board? Because, you know, to start with, there’s not really any changes for the staff. You know, they’re still employed, they still expect to do the same job and everything else, but it was trying to get them to think about, okay, what does the future mean as an employee owner? How do I have to sort of…
shift my mindset. So there was an awful lot there to be considering the whole way through.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (05:08)
For sure. And so there’s a bit of concerns around how people outside the company would perceive it and interpret it. But what about you? You’re just going into a new role. think it was, what was the role you were going into? So sales director, and had there been a sales director before?
Caroline Summers (05:16)
Yeah.
I was going in sales director.
No, they hadn’t. This was a brand new role. was, the company really was only made up of two directors. So there was the founder and the managing director. And they were very keen with the founder saying, Hey, I want to go down this route, but I want to really take a step back and actually remove myself and retire from the business. So it was a case of, okay, we want to bring in a new director. We want to start looking and focusing a lot more on the sales side of the business. And hey, presto, I came along.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (05:59)
So you came into a new role in a business that’s potentially in a less than stable, no, that’s not fair, but going through a change and whenever there’s change, there’s uncertainty. ⁓ And the staff with an EOT being employee ownership, what questions were the staff having about this structure and what it meant to them? And how did they interpret it as well? ⁓
Caroline Summers (06:07)
Yeah.
Yes.
Absolutely.
think, yeah,
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (06:28)
Double-edged question.
Caroline Summers (06:29)
yeah, absolutely. So a lot of questions were asked, particularly, you know, they had this new person, me, joining, and then the company was transitioning at the same time. And it was, you know, a lot of people have been with the company for a long time. So the company, we celebrated our 25th birthday this year. So we’ve been around for a long time. And a lot of the staff had been with the company, you know, for sort of 10 plus years.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (06:47)
Congratulations.
Caroline Summers (06:54)
And it was, okay, what does this change mean to me? Is this new person going to come in and are they going to change everything that we do? Are they going to be a force for the good or is it going to be much the same as it was before? And I think one of the things I picked up quite quickly when I joined the company was that a lot of the things that happened were perhaps legacy issues, things that have kind of, it’s always been done like this.
So I think there was a really good opportunity to perhaps, you know, have a whiteboard, start again and say, okay, what do we want to do? So getting more, more feedback really from the staff, which I think particularly in an employee owned company, it’s crucial. You have to have, you know, that’s what it’s all about. We’re all in this together. We’re all an equal party. So it’s okay, what kind of things do you want to see to change? You know, what things…
that we do currently, you think we should continue with doing because it’s the right way to go? So there was a lot of initial discussions around that. But I guess one of the things you always find with any company, you get those that are more than happy to chat and to give you their views and their opinions, but you also get the other side of people that would rather just listen and just continue with the status quo because it works for me, it’s fine.
You have to sort of bear that in mind, you you can’t always bring everybody along at the same time. And people, I think, will transition to new ideas and new thoughts at different stages throughout their roles.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (08:28)
Sure. And that’s, guess, what we hear about normal change management. And that’s all the change with the new person coming into the business. Were there any questions around the change in ownership structure or was that totally put in the back with the bigger concern of what’s the new person going to do to my job in the business?
Caroline Summers (08:44)
Yeah. Who’s this new person?
Yeah, no, there absolutely was because at the time it was, you know, well, what does this mean to me? Because everyone was told, well, it’s an indirect ownership model and the shares are held in trust for all of the employees. Well, does that mean that I get shares? Do I have a percentage of the company? Am I going to get a bonus? Do I get a pay rise? There were lots of questions around, I guess, the financial side of it.
And then there’s the questions that are, well, is my job safe? Is the company going to be sold or is it going to remain as it is? So, you know, a lot of those questions were answered because I think, as I say, employee ownership was still quite a new thing back then.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (09:27)
For sure. And when I talk to companies about moving this down this route, some of them go, well, hang on ownership. Is my house at risk? ⁓ And there’s a whole lot of concerns around, and naturally people are interested in what it means to them. And we need to address those fears and opportunities, I guess, and what the benefits are.
Caroline Summers (09:37)
Yes.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (09:52)
And the big thing that I’ve seen for companies that make a really successful transition is that the employees need to be made aware of how a business actually runs. Because there’s often this perception that they’re doing all of the hard work and the owners are just sitting on a beach, milking and ripping profits out of the business and making millions when it’s sometimes the case that they’re actually making less than the employees.
So what did you do in the way of, and if you’re involved in this, in educating the employees of how the business works and how the money flows through the business, when some are just got the attitude, as you said before, of actually, I’m cool, I just keep doing my job and I’m happy, and others are going, well, hang on, if I own the business now, I wanna know a bit more.
Caroline Summers (10:46)
So what I’d started, about six months into my tenure, I started to hold quarterly, sort of town hall meetings, for want of a better word. So we employ about 40 people. So we’re all in one site. So it was easy to get everybody together. So every quarter we would get the entire team together and we would share information that we’d never shared before. before as a company, it was very much, okay, you do your job. We won’t tell you about…
how we’re doing, what does that mean? But I felt that, you know, being employee owners, everybody has a right to understand, you know, they need to see the good, the bad, and the sometimes ugly. So every quarter we talk about how our sales, how we’re performing as a company, how our profits looking, are there any risks or challenges that we need to be thinking about? And that started then to get everybody thinking about, well, okay, I’m just…
let’s take my part of my job. I’m working within the warehouse and I’m working on our packing team. Okay, what changes or what differences could myself and my colleagues make that might be able to benefit the company? So we then sort of opened up this forum, if you like, of feedback. And it was great to see some of the ideas are amazing ideas and ideas that you just don’t see or don’t hear when you’re a little bit removed from it.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (12:05)
Yeah.
Caroline Summers (12:11)
We had money saving ideas. had ways that, know, morale could be improved, ways we could improve our environment and where we worked. And that kind of led us into then setting up our employee council, which has become, you know, throughout our journey has been an absolutely crucial part of our transition to being fully EO.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (12:24)
Mm-hmm.
So the Employee Council, how did that work? Is that the ⁓ involvement of the old suggestion scheme? How does it work in practice?
Caroline Summers (12:42)
So in practice, it is actually, Darryl, it’s kind of, you know, the old suggestion box where you popped everything in there. So this is an elected body of a representation of staff from across the business. So we have some of the office staff and then some of the warehouse staff get together usually every six weeks, but it just depends on, you know, what issues there might be, but it’s, There’s no management involved. So it’s a kind of forum for everybody to be really open about
what they love, what they don’t love, what they’d like to change, what they’d like to see more of or less of. And then that gets fed back to the board via the employee trustee. So there were lots of things in there and that kind of started, I think, the employee’s journey towards employee ownership. It got them thinking about, okay, what’s really important to me? You know, aside from, have we got really great tea bags or can I have a new coffee machine? It was around about, well, okay,
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (13:22)
Yep.
Caroline Summers (13:41)
company benefits, what do we get at the moment and actually what’s really important to me? You know what it’s like management think, well actually everybody I’m sure would like an enhanced pension. They’re like, well actually no, that’s not really important to me, but life cover really is important to me. So it was having, I think the employees having that voice to be able to share that and know that they were being listened to.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (14:07)
Yeah. And I guess now that, you know, once it moved to employee ownership, instead of when people keep asking for more, which is a natural thing as employees to also go, well, here’s the impact if we do that, it’s going to cost this much and here’s the impact on the financials. And here’s why it is or isn’t viable. Here’s the impact. You know, we need this amount of profit retained so that we can invest in the other ideas moving forward. And if we, if we do this, you know,
Caroline Summers (14:13)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (14:34)
We’ve now got a choice. Do we do this or that? What is more important to you? And the management team need to run the business for the benefit of their shareholders, which happens to be you now.
Caroline Summers (14:37)
That’s it.
Yeah. Yeah. Yep,
Absolutely. And that’s the really important thing. It’s that understanding because, you know, obviously a lot of the wishes we had were could we have more holiday, more sick pay, more salary, all of these things. But when you break it down and say, well, okay, we’ve got this pot of profit. And from that, we need to do, put money aside for development. We need to put money aside for premises. We need to do all of these things. When you break it down,
people then begin to appreciate, I think, a little more about, okay, so it’s not just a, want, want, want all of those things. But I think the important thing for us was making sure that, you know, we continue to share what our goals are as well. you know, whilst we might not be able to do everything this year, our aim would be that within the next two years, we can do these things. And then within the next five years, we can do the other set of things.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (15:38)
Yeah. And was part of the conversation of we’ve got this amount of profit. And look, by the way, guys, for the next five years, I guess it was, you know, this much of the profit needs to go to pay back of our loan. Because at the end of the day, in five years time, we basically get a free business, which then means all of that money is then available for us to be even more ⁓ creative with how we use it.
Caroline Summers (15:50)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. That was a conversation that we had really early on because the valuation, the original valuation for the company was excessive. It was, it was based on a lot of assumptions that actually didn’t come to fruition. And then of course, six months into it, COVID hit too. So it was kind of, you know, right. So this original valuation, whilst at the time may have been, you know, absolutely relevant.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (16:23)
Yeah.
Caroline Summers (16:32)
kind of had changed within the first six months quite quickly.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (16:36)
very delicately put there, Caroline. Well done. And there’s laws, and I guess just a bit of an aside, since that transaction happened, the government’s gone, hang on a sec, we need an independent valuation for valuations moving forward. Okay, so if I’m reading between the lines, your role of sales director has sort of evolved and you’re taking more responsibility on yourself.
Caroline Summers (16:43)
Yep. Yes.
Yes. Yep. Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. So the founder by this point had retired from the business and was just taking the deferred payments. The managing director, ⁓ she remained in the business still, but was kind of taking a back seat towards retirement herself. So at that point it was, know, are you happy to step up into this new role? And it was absolutely, am, because, you know, I could see what a really great company we’ve got and where we want to be.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (17:07)
right?
and you demonstrated, I guess, you’d been in the role for a little while at this point and they’d got confidence and faith in you.
Caroline Summers (17:32)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
I think so. And I think, you know, that was a really important thing because I’d been able to demonstrate quite early on my value to the business. I think they felt confident that actually I was doing it for the right reasons. you know, but it led to, you know, there was some difficult and awkward conversations that followed as they always do.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (17:57)
Well, you’re not doing your job if you’re not having those. So one of the first things you’ve done is you’ve stepped into the larger, the lead role, ⁓ and you’ve had to go, well, hang on a sec, this valuation, this deal, how did you bring that conversation up?
Caroline Summers (17:59)
Absolutely!
Yeah,
it became apparent quite quickly that the original plan was that there would be a set quarterly payment made to the vendors. So the primary vendor was receiving 80 % and the then managing director receiving 20%. But it became evident really, really quickly that, hey, we’re going to really struggle to meet these deferred payments because of the valuation. So a board meeting came and…
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (18:39)
Mm-hmm.
Caroline Summers (18:42)
I’d already spoken to the managing director and said, look, this is what I think we should do. You know, moving forward, we should put this proposal to the primary vendor. And she was, absolutely agree. And he agreed, you know, the original valuation was cut in half. So he accepted a 50 % decrease in that original valuation.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (19:05)
Okay, so how did you arrive at the new valuation?
Caroline Summers (19:08)
Yeah. So it was looking at the business now. So obviously, you know, the valuations generally were worked out on EBITDA over a set period and then a percentage taken from it. But looking at it now, I’d looked more to the future about where we saw the business kind of taking COVID out of it because none of us really knew what was going to happen there. But knowing that the, some of the international channels that we were no longer shipping to and looking about
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (19:16)
Mm-hmm.
Caroline Summers (19:36)
okay, what’s the business going to look like in two to three years time? And then coming up with evaluation based on that, which was, you know, in my mind and actually, you know, in advisors minds, more appropriate. And he went for that.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (19:49)
it.
And the valuation, did you work it out or did you have some help, external help?
Caroline Summers (19:55)
No, no,
worked it out. No, absolutely worked out. We spoke to, ⁓ we took some advice on, know, this is what we want to do. Does this sound sensible and plausible? And they were like, well, yes, absolutely it does. And it’s, it’s then, you know, will the owner agree to that?
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (20:11)
Yeah. And it almost sounds like there was a bit of reverse engineering going on as well. I might be reading between the lines, but of a case of, look, we’ve got a payment plan for five years. Here’s the shape of the business. Sustainably, what can we afford to pay for five years? And then kind of almost reverse engineering and go, that equates to this valuation.
Caroline Summers (20:30)
Yeah, yeah. And it was that, Daryl, and
I think a big part of it was, you know, the owner wanted to ensure that he was still going to be able to take something from his retirement. If we couldn’t have negotiated this, the company may not have managed to survive, and actually, then he would be taking nothing. I think he, you know, he took this, he made a sensible choice, which was great. And, you know, in that way as well, we then looked at the quarterly payments that we were making.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (20:41)
naturally.
Exactly.
Caroline Summers (20:59)
and they changed and in the end, you know, it left the company in a tricky position, but we managed over the five and a half year period to be able to pay that. And those new quarterly payments equated to 70 % of our profits that we would pay out every quarter to the vendors. Leaving the company with 30, I know, and it’s, wow. No, not at all. And that was, I guess, the negotiation point that the vendor wanted, you know.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (21:22)
Not much breathing room left.
Caroline Summers (21:28)
Our initial suggestion was that 50-50 and the vendor was no, look, if I’m going to do this, then this is what I’d like. And you think, goodness me, you breathe in anything, I’m sure this is going to be fine. It’s the right decision for us. We can do this, but there was a few squeaky times for sure.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (21:47)
Yeah. And if they and you know, we can always go on paper, you know, if we keep growing the business, then it gets easier. But growth requires cash flow, ⁓ which even puts more on the squeeze. So there’s this tough conversation, number one, and we’ve got only five years. How hard can it be? ⁓ Which sounds OK at the time. What else did you work on, Caroline? have governance ⁓ is a big thing, and especially with employees.
Caroline Summers (21:53)
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah
Yep.
Yeah. Yeah.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (22:15)
coming in there, you’ve got, you mentioned that the trustees and the trustees working with the board, that’s a new experience for many organizations, just having a board in itself, a grown up type of board looking at governance and what have you is new. How did that evolve and grow and play out?
Caroline Summers (22:24)
Yes.
Yes. Yes.
It was really interesting. So of course every business has governance, but the level of governance in employee owned business is very different. And at the time it was, well, okay, we need these trustees to be, you know, they are there for all beneficiaries and their role is to oversee what the management board are doing, you know, to make sure that we’re not running off with, you know, the money and making sure that we’re doing the right thing. And we had a…
which we’ve got a trustee board, which is made up of two independents, one of the vendors and an employee trustee. Now, I think when we first started this journey, that was probably the right mix because it was something very new to all of us. So having that oversight and that guidance was really, important to us. But as we’ve transitioned now to the position that we’re in,
We’re questioning whether that trustee board mix is actually right for us because we believe that there should be more employees within that trust board because, hey, it’s our company now and we should have more of a say in how we think the company should be run. So that’s our next journey, if you like, that we are going to be starting on now that we have got Financial Freedom Day.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (23:50)
done. Okay, and the role of the two independents? How do they add value to the the trustee board?
Caroline Summers (23:57)
⁓ At times they do. I you know what, think, I think independent trustees are a great thing, but I think the level of understanding of our business and the, guess the interaction with the operational board and actually all of the beneficiaries has not been as we’d expected. They seem to be very much ⁓ working with the vendors.
and not necessarily with the beneficiaries. And that’s not how it should be.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (24:31)
No, they’re okay. understand the issue a bit more now. So and then you’ve got the operational board who sits on who what’s the makeup of the operational board?
Caroline Summers (24:36)
Yeah.
So
the operational board, have myself as CEO, finance director, and then one of the vendors is also an operational director. So she is a trustee, an operational director and a vendor.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (24:55)
Okay. So.
Caroline Summers (24:59)
wearing three hats. I know, and actually, know, I think it is a tricky thing to be able to detach yourself. Okay, hang on, I’m thinking as operational director, I’m thinking as trustee, I’m thinking as vendor, and I think sometimes that it can get a little bit muddied.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (24:59)
interesting dynamics.
Okay, so without digging too deep, what do you see would be hypothetically the ideal mix of a trustee, a group of trustees?
Caroline Summers (25:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think, certainly for our business, I think an independent is really, really important because I think they do provide that level of governance and oversight that sometimes, you know, when you’re in the read, you can’t always see it. So I think an independent, we would absolutely benefit from an independent. Yes.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (25:42)
Yeah, yeah, third party expertise
with the role of my role is to look after the beneficiaries. That’s the role of the trustee.
Caroline Summers (25:50)
Yeah,
absolutely. And to be that trusted advisor, because I think, you know, we all go through times, you know, there’s been periods over the past five years where I think, goodness me, I really could have done with somebody that I could just bounce this particular thought or idea off and didn’t necessarily have that. So I think an independent, you know, advisor, trustee would be brilliant. I think we would like to have one of the operational directors as a trustee.
And then three employee trustees made up from across the business.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (26:25)
And if you had three employee trustees, would you still need the employee council that you were talking about earlier?
Caroline Summers (26:29)
Yeah.
Yeah,
because I think that’s absolutely crucial because they provide, they’re that link to all of the employees. So they can be the ones that can be, you know, on a day-to-day basis, they’re working with the teams, they can talk to them about what’s important to them, what they want to see. So I think for us, the Employee Council, it’s been such a positive experience that we would absolutely continue with that.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (26:35)
Okay.
Brilliant. Alrighty. So Caroline, let’s a bit of nostalgia here. If you take your mind back to five and a half years ago, what the business looked like, the culture, the ⁓ understanding of how the business works across the whole business compared to today, where you’ve got, ⁓ I guess, a mature employee ownership ⁓ trust owned business. How would you compare the two?
Caroline Summers (27:17)
my goodness, it’s so different, but different in such a great way. I think when I first joined, we had a team of people who were all doing what they were told to do in their job, but were very frightened to put their head above the parapet or to speak out. They would just do exactly as they were told to do. They would take home their money at the end of the month and they would just come in and do that. We now have a company that we have people that are proud to be different, proud to…
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (27:27)
Yeah.
Right.
Caroline Summers (27:47)
move forward with change, proud and happy to speak up continually about, hey, we think this is a great idea for our company and have we thought about this idea and just be part of it. As much as we have an operational board, we are all very level. My door is always open. People know that they can come and talk to me about anything and everything. And I think we’re way more open than we ever ever were. And people just feel really valued and part of…
something that is going to be so exciting.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (28:17)
Yeah. And the ideas that people were bringing to the table five years ago compared to the types of ideas that they’re bringing to the table now, how do they compare?
Caroline Summers (28:25)
Yeah,
really different. So I think initially there was a lot of, it was all around the sort of the physical things, the coffee machine. Can we have a snack machine? Can we do this? Now it’s, okay, so what should we be thinking about dealing with these customers in this particular country? Because they are avid readers of English language books or, hey, we’re working with this freight forwarder who’s based up at Heathrow. If we were to deliver…
for customers rather than just one customer, that’s way more cost efficient for us, isn’t it? So it’s all of these sorts of things that people start to think about the business in a wider sense.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (29:04)
That’s exactly what I hoped would happen. So it sounds like it’s changed from, me, what do I get out of this? To, how do we make this a better business? which I guess suggests that strategy can be learned by everyone.
Caroline Summers (29:21)
It can, it really can because, say, we are a book wholesaler and distributor and we have, you know, over half of our staff work in our warehouse, making sure those books come in, they go out and do the things like that. They’ve never been in a kind of boardroom situation. They’ve never had to think about these things, but wow, they have taken it on board. It’s been, you know, it’s been a long time to get the message through and to get them to think like business owners, but they are now and it’s just brilliant to see.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (29:53)
So are you suggesting that, I think this is what you’re saying, that people are now looking at everything that happens in their business, specifically around their job, and going, how can I do this more effectively, more efficiently, and how can I save the business money and therefore make more profit, which at the end of the day, benefits me?
Caroline Summers (30:05)
Yeah.
Yeah, which ultimately,
Absolutely, and that is absolutely it. It’s all about, you know, what changes can I do? They might be little changes for me, but actually I could do this something wider for the business and it’s going to benefit me long term.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (30:24)
And the overall objective has been achieved of how do we get employees to think and act like business owners? Well, let’s make them business owners and teach them and anyone can do this.
Caroline Summers (30:29)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. I firmly believe, I think it’s having the right people in the business at the top who have got that kind of mindset to be able to be very open and to be very sharing. And as I said earlier, to give it to everybody, warts and all, the good times and the bad times, we have to roll with all of those. It’s not always going to be an amazing time where we’ve just repaid our vendor loan, but everybody understands that.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (30:50)
Thank
Yeah. So you’ve just repaid. ⁓ Did anything, any milestones, any events to celebrate this? What’s happened? What’s different about the business now?
Caroline Summers (31:13)
yes.
So on Friday the 20th is ⁓ employee ownership day. So we have ⁓ a big sort of party actually in our Fairford warehouse and we’re having sort of speeches and gifts and that kind of thing and a great big cake. But on the 4th of July, quite aptly Independence Day, ⁓ we are going on a river, the entire company is going on a river cruise down the Thames sort of to all celebrate a nice big party and things like that. So.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (31:32)
.
Caroline Summers (31:42)
It’s, yeah, a lot of fun things are planned.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (31:45)
Wonderful. Well, congratulations. ⁓ I’m just wondering, from your perspective, sort of come in as the outsider, has led the transition from, I guess, an employee culture to one of an ownership mindset. What’s your feedback to anyone who’s thinking about or just entering that journey of exploring ⁓
Caroline Summers (31:47)
Thank you.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (32:14)
transition to an EOT today.
Caroline Summers (32:16)
I think, guess, top tips if you’d like to call them, I think it’s really important. One of the things that I found challenging to start with was the fact that they’re, you know, who are these trustees? What are they doing? Because I’m not really hearing anything from them. They don’t seem to be supporting the wider group. I think that would be, you know, something, get the trust board in place, but get them working with that operational board as well because…
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (32:19)
Yeah.
Caroline Summers (32:44)
When they’re working together, they can create such great things. I think when there’s a bit of a distance between them, it can sometimes then become a little bit more challenging to work together. And I think probably one of the other things would be to get the staff involved much sooner. When I joined the company, they knew very little about employee ownership because the owners hadn’t really shared that much with them. It was just, hey, this is a thing, it’s going to happen, but you don’t need to worry about it yet because there’s a big loan to pay off and that kind of thing.
getting them involved much sooner, just get some thinking about it. And then you get all of these ideas that are happening all the way. So it doesn’t have to all happen once the loan’s paid off. You know, as all these ideas are coming up as you’re going through, it’ll help you get the loan paid quicker because you’ve got more cash in the business.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (33:32)
Brilliant. So get the benefits flowing at the very beginning. Get the people involved so that that transition happens. And who knows, you might get the loan paid off quicker.
Caroline Summers (33:36)
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely, because it’s boundless and you don’t know what opportunities are going to come your way. As I mentioned earlier, COVID came along and that was like, oh my goodness, what does that mean? But there’s things that are a good opportunity that will come your way as well. And I think sharing that together with everybody is the really important thing because you just don’t know what you don’t know until you don’t know it.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (34:08)
Exactly. Brilliant. Caroline, I really appreciate your time. Are there any final words or thoughts or tips from yourself before we wrap this up?
Caroline Summers (34:17)
Final words.
I think my tip would be employee ownership, I think is a brilliant thing. I think it’s a way that you can ensure that a business that perhaps, you you don’t know whether it’s going to survive or not is a great way for business owners to exit the business. But it’s also that great providing that legacy for all of your workers who’ve worked so hard to get the business to where it is that they can flourish for the future so they get something too. So employee ownership is definitely a great model.
Darryl Bates-Brownsword (34:47)
Brilliant. Caroline Summers, thanks for sharing your exit insights with us today.
Caroline Summers (34:51)
You’re welcome. Thank you.