Systemise to Scale: How to Grow Without Becoming a Corporate Clone with Kevin Harrington

Blog Post: Systemise to Scale – Avoid Becoming a Corporate Clone

Are you scaling your business or just working harder?

Too many SME owners hit a wall when they try to grow — adding complexity, bureaucracy, and corporate behaviours that don’t suit a smaller, nimbler business. In this episode of Exit Insights, Darryl Bates-Brownsword and Kevin Harrington explain why systemisation, not corporatisation, is the key to sustainable growth and a successful exit.

Why You Should Listen

If you’re a business owner thinking about stepping back or selling one day, this episode offers a clear roadmap to help you prepare. You’ll discover how to make your business more valuable, exitable, and less reliant on you.

What You’ll Learn

How SMEs grow through steps, not smooth curves — and how to navigate those growth spurts
The dangers of copying corporate habits
The four systems you need to support growth without increasing owner dependence
The real meaning of systemisation (hint: it’s not about software!)
How to make your business more attractive to buyers by keeping it simple

???? Show Notes – Key Topics Covered

Corporate habits that slow down growth for SMEs
The difference between systemising and adding red tape
Four key systems for scalable growth:

Marketing system to generate leads
Primary workflow to deliver consistent results
Talent system to align capacity with demand
Agile management system to drive the vision

How to avoid owner dependence that limits valuation
Why documentation and feedback loops matte
Using systems to reduce friction and boost profit

???? Resources Mentioned

EOS (Entrepreneurial Operating System)
“They Ask, You Answer” by Marcus Sheridan

Want to exit on your terms and maximise your valuation? Start with systemisation. Listen to the full episode to find out how to build a business that’s simple, scalable, and sellable.

Transcript

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (00:38)

Welcome to the podcast dedicated to helping you maximize the valuation of your business and provide you with options on where to go next. This is the Exit Insights podcast presented by Fabric Business Solutions. I’m Darryl Bates-Brownsword and I’m joined by my regular guest, Kevin Harrington. Thanks for joining me, Kevin.

Kevin Harrington (00:58)

Hi Darryl, pleased to be here as ever.

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (01:01)

Always. Now, Kevin, we had a really good chat last week around businesses when they grow and scale and wanting to become or guess copy what they see in other business models, what they’re trying to grow into and emulate and adopting and embracing or desiring corporatization. That sounds too big, copying corporate behaviors and that not helping them out as they grow, especially while they’re still a small and

and privately owned business. And all that we talked about all the negativities of ⁓ corporate behavior and corporate culture in a business. So it’s great talking about that. if you want to learn about what the downside to that is, have listened to last week’s episode, but we’re going to talk about what to do instead today.

Kevin Harrington (01:50)

Yeah, it’s last last week’s episode was was fantastic. And isn’t it funny that when you focus on something, it’s like if you own a particular car, every 100 meters down the road, you’re seeing another one of them. And we were talking exactly as you said, we were talking about SMEs that feel or ⁓ they need to or advise to pay more like a corporate. Do know what I see? I’ve seen two or three really quite humorous examples of that because it’s front of mind with me. And thinking, ouch, why are you doing that?

And where it got me to was that if you really want to sum it up for the SME, it’s about keeping it simple. That doesn’t mean making it bad or setting up something that ignores important things. It means keeping it simple and straightforward, capturing everything that’s important and maintaining that advantage the SME has of being agile and able to make quick decisions to benefit the

them, their customers, their employees, their stakeholders in whatever their marketplace is. So really we’re talking about SMEs keeping it simple, but what on earth does that mean? What do they need to do?

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (03:01)

Yeah. And I think the crux of it is just that nimble and quick and quick decision-making and really customer oriented. like what you get difference in an SME business is, is customers feel because they know the key people in the business. They feel valued and cared for as a client, which you just don’t get in a corporate, especially the big corporates. How many times have you been promised by when you call a mobile phone company or a

or an internet service provider and you’ve had a problem, they go, leave that with me, I’ll call you back with a resolution next week. You just hang up knowing you’re not gonna get a call back, don’t you?

Kevin Harrington (03:39)

Yeah, yeah, you almost feel like saying to them, okay, you’ll call me back. When’s the best time for me to phone you back?

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (03:46)

Yeah, yeah. And what are the chances of getting the same person? But that’s not going to help us today. And that’s not going to help SME business owners try and figure out how to get or how to achieve scalable growth. because what happens with as businesses grow? We like to see and imagine a nice exponential curve that just gradually gets steeper and steeper and and growth gets faster and faster. And, you know, that’s all well and good. And that’s how it’s often represented.

But in my experience, I reckon businesses actually grow in steps. They go through some growing pains and they invest in their business and they step up to the next layer of ⁓ level. Then they settle into that level and they grow and they get established and then they implement something else and it steps them up. And it’s a series of growth spurts and growing pains as they go through those steps of growth. And those that do it…

Some of them are doing it consciously and they go, I know what I need to invest in next. I know the next piece of infrastructure or the next tool or the next resource I need to do. ⁓ And they’ll have a platform or a framework that they’re following to keep investing and growing. Others will just keep doing more of the same. And they’re the ones who run out of energy. And when they’re just doing more of the same, they run out of time themselves as the business owner. And they can only scale it as far as their span of control can reach.

Kevin Harrington (05:10)

Yeah, I think there’s an extra dimension on that to add, which is the things that need doing, how about doing them slightly before they’re needed rather than afterwards. And I recall vividly a nine month period when I helped a friend start an import and effectively distribution business is what it looked like to the customers, buying stuff from Italy.

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (05:12)

Yeah.

Kevin Harrington (05:38)

bedroom furniture, wardrobes, bathroom, ceramics and kitchen stuff and so on. And all we did was cut out the middleman, the UK distributor. And if you bought it from us, it got delivered straight from Italy, straight to the customer. It gave us an extra 40 % of margin to play with. That’s why it worked. But I laugh about it when I think about it now. It’s, do you want to buy some of these Philippe Starck toilets then?

And people would go, yes, how much are they? we go, we need a price list. And as soon as you send them the price list, they go, ⁓ how many to a pallet then? And all the time we were playing catch up on the questions. Obviously, it needed one question for us to come up with a price list and so on. But really, we could have spent two solid days at the front end, knowing what was needed. And I think that’s, most SMEs will recognise in some way,

that challenge of doing things after they’re needed. So I think our start point is to say, well, predict what the questions are gonna be, who you’re gonna have to supply information to and find a way of corralling it, storing it, sharing it. So in advance in the first place. And then you’re at the absolute start point of having data and data starts providing an ability to analyze that data.

Who’s your biggest customers? What are they buying? Whatever it is. And you’re on the way then to having that efficient and effective SME that doesn’t have to behave like a corporate, but actually can make better decisions. We can talk about how those are made in a while.

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (07:24)

So I really like your sense of going, hey, look, let’s anticipate the questions that our market are going to be asking. If someone’s looking for the product that we sell or the problem that we solve, they’re going to have some questions in their mind. And there’ll be some common questions. And we’re familiar with the old FAQs on websites. But I think you’re digging a little deeper than that than the general admin type questions and sort of going,

about how does it solve my problem? Or when it solves my problem, you know, will it fit in the if we’re talking toilets or have you will it fit in a corner? Yeah. Where’s the outlet pipe? Do it? Does it need to be a floor or a wall outlet pipe? What height is it? Is it flexible? What water pressure do I need? ⁓ And they’re all the sort of questions that people are going to have before they want to by now if you like on the palette or how many in a palette is is a simple thing. So it’s

It reminds me of that book by I think it’s Marcus Sheridan. They ask you answer. And that really helps your SEO as well, because they’re typing those questions into Google or even chat GPT now and AI for search. And if you’ve got those sort of answers on your website, then it’s going to be directed to you. Is that the sort of stuff that you’re toying with?

Kevin Harrington (08:44)

Yes, absolutely. And our experience when we’re doing this is this is a couple of decades ago now. But our experience when we were doing it was that all the answers were available easily from our suppliers. Yes, some of it was in Italian. But you you can get around that much easier these days as well. But there was no was no difficulty us finding the answers, but our customers couldn’t.

And so therefore we were actually able to add value in that relationship by saying, yeah, I understand why you want to know that. Well, here’s actually a matrix that shows you which ones will do that. And so you can see the price range of those and so on. And for so many people, the simple things like the palletization of it, why is that important? Well, they were thinking about the logistics of buying it. They weren’t thinking about the product features.

they’re already saying I want them and we were putting friction in the way of not even knowing how many are on a container or whatever. And it’s actually quite exciting guessing what your customers want and what we ended up doing is we ended up working with a UK agent in that industry and said, what are all your customers asking? And he ended up becoming the aggregator of all those things that people wanted to know. And very quickly we got ahead of the game.

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (09:44)

Yeah.

Kevin Harrington (10:08)

But it was many funny days spent going, yeah, yeah, we’ll have that ready for you any moment. you want an image of the product, you? Excellent, that’ll be with you very soon.

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (10:20)

Yeah.

And I like, your key point because especially now, like any sort of friction that’s going to slow down the purchase. Well, you know, people will just move on to the next option. So anyway, we can remove friction, any piece of friction in any part of the process, then, you know, that the more likely we are, we’re going to find and win and keep clients. And I think it’s that any part of the process that provides us some insight of, well,

If we don’t want to corporatize our business as an SME business owner, what do we want to do instead? My proposal is the biggest thing you can do is systemize your business. And what do I mean by systemize your business? Because you have a look at the quality management systems and there might be some gurus out there that will be shouting at their phone now as they’re listening. But the quality management system addresses primarily your operations, the way your workflow is through your primary workflow.

How do you manufacture when you’ve got a product and you deliver it to a client or you’ve got a project? How does workflow through that project? I think we’re going to systemize our business. We want to look a whole lot wider than that. We want to look at how do we get, how do we communicate with our core market, our target clients? So who are having the problems that we solve? How do we reach them? How do we communicate them and let them know that we exist and we’re a viable option. So let’s call that your marketing machine as a system.

Now, if your marketing machine is effective, then it’s going to introduce a whole lot of leads to your business and marketing and sales are the lines and boundaries between marketing and sales are really blurred now. So, but from a systems perspective, let’s just have a look at this. So the next, the next area of systemization is, what I’ll call the primary workflow. And the primary workflow is from when you’re actually having a conversation with the client. So let’s call that the sales function or a prospect rather.

all the way through to engagement or fulfillment or delivery and having a happy customer. So there’s your primary workflow that flows all the way through the operations of your business. The third system that I think you need to look at in your business is, well, how do I make sure I’ve got enough talent and resource and capacity to cope with the demand? And especially in today’s sort of businesses where we need a skilled workforce.

How do I make sure that I’ve got a flow of enough capacity to match the demand generated by my marketing machine and making sure that I’m training and skilling those people up and getting them ⁓ to be able to run at capacity just in time for my primary workflows? And then once I’ve got a really good clean operating side of the business, how do I make sure that I keep on that path of sustainable growth that we were talking about earlier? What sort of management system do I have to have in place? How do I?

How do I eliminate owner dependence in my business as an SME? And how do I structure it so that the management team have got a good grip of the vision and putting steps or annual steps in place that are growing and incrementing the business towards that vision ⁓ without so much of my daily input? How do I get that management team to be picking up and running and driving that process ⁓ and pulling the business more ⁓ in the right direction?

for sustainable growth, call that a management information system, call it an agile management system. ⁓ Good examples are EOS and we’ve got a lot of ⁓ experience with people like that in the business. And they’re the four systems I think we need in a business. If you’re to fully systemize your business, they’re the workflows that we need to address. And then we’ve got tools that support those systems for automation. So systems and systemization often get blurred.

So I’m just trying to get some clarity here around the difference between systemizing your business, which is what is it that we need to do ⁓ as a consistent process? And then the tools such as a CRM system and accounting system tool being an electronic platform that automates and and keeps score if you like. So provides reporting to show me that things are on track and every system is being followed. So there’s a bit of an outline, Kevin. Where do you want to start to ⁓

Dig into this.

Kevin Harrington (14:40)

I guess the first thing I could do is talk about the work process of the roofing company that are next door making all the banging noises you can hear. They’re obviously not getting it quite right for me. But I think

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (14:48)

Hahaha

We can’t

hear it at this end, you’ll be pleased to hear.

Kevin Harrington (14:54)

Well, that’s good. Now then, I think a large number of people listening to what you just said about the four different ways of looking at things and for the workflows and so forth, have, may possibly have glazed over, depends on their mindset. Some people are going, yippee, I want this. No, it’s deadly dull and boring. And it

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (15:15)

Yeah, good point, because it’s not exciting stuff, is it?

Kevin Harrington (15:23)

The thing is, it’s not. The thing is, this is about your business. It’s about the thing you started and it’s about where you want to take it to. And I was thinking while you were talking, because my mind was wandering, I was thinking about, yeah, there we go. I was thinking about Sidney Ishida and the iceberg of ignorance.

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (15:40)

Because I’m boring you!

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Harrington (15:50)

And the iceberg of ignorance is some research that shows that in a big company, the problems in the business, only 4 % of them are known by the board. 100 % of the problems are known by the people that do all the work at the bottom of this pyramid. And it’s the iceberg of ignorance by Sidney Ishida. And so what does that tell us? Because some of that goes on in SMEs as well.

So let’s just talk about your workflow piece as a start point. What’s the process from order through to fulfillment or what goes on before that and even after that. The way I would approach it with an SME is to say, you think you know it all because you’ve been doing this for 20 years and you started it all by yourself. The first thing I would recommend you do is talk to two or three really good customers and ask how workflow works for them

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (16:37)

Yep. ⁓

Kevin Harrington (16:47)

and talk to the people that are doing each of the individual stages and say, is this what you do? Because the first thing you’ll find out is people are doing things in a different way than you expect. They’re doing some things you don’t even know about. And it’s…

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (16:58)

Yeah.

Because They

find

workarounds and they find easier ways of doing it and they find shortcuts. And Sometimes things are obsolete because it was designed 10 years ago. There’s always reasons of why you got to check in and make sure that things are happening the way you think they’re happening. Or If they’re not, think of a new way. ⁓

Kevin Harrington (17:06)

Yeah.

The one.

Yeah, one team

may have done a workaround, another team may have done a workaround and they’re different. So You almost end up with two or three different approaches going on through the business. So how about everyone using the best approach? And you can only find the best approach by talking to your marketplace and talking to people that deliver it. The chances are very little needs to be changed. But the little bits that do need changing will make a huge difference.

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (17:27)

Yeah.

You know what?

Kevin Harrington (17:48)

And where it becomes exciting is it can be written down usually on a piece of A4 paper. This is not some big exercise that consumes multiple people over weeks and then everyone doubts the conclusions. This is a common sense document that says, here’s how we do this. And we can then, we can share it with new starters. We can share it with people that have been there for ages and say, look, this is how we do it. And we’ll carry on doing it like that until we find a better way of doing it.

and you might help us do that. And it’s the start of saying, let’s have a continuously learning business. But unless you have a baseline of knowledge, it’s very difficult to continuously learn in an effective and efficient way.

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (18:31)

Yeah. So, yeah, I think that the keys of documenting the system is getting the people who actually do the work to document it because they know what to do. it. The risk you also have then is because they’re doing it every day themselves is that they gloss over it and go, well, we assume that everyone understands what we’re doing. And that’s where your point of, different teams may have had different workarounds and doing it different ways. And look, even sometimes I see

processes where people are just doing the job and they haven’t even thought around, hey, look, I’m doing this process or this step every week or every day or on a regular basis. How do I automate it? How do I create a checklist to make sure that ⁓ I’m not skipping anything just because I’m going through a mental blank or what have you? How do I make sure that I do every step every time? Because if the step is there, it’s hopefully an important step and worth doing. It’s not just there because, well, we’ve always done it that way.

Which is another risk that we need to clear out of the way.

Kevin Harrington (19:35)

And in slightly more mature businesses and sometimes slightly more complex businesses, one of the interesting things that can come out from this is that the flow from the customer’s perspective, it starts off going from A to B to B to C and C to D. And actually, a couple of parallel paths can be put in place because we don’t have to wait for some things to be done for other things to happen for our clients. And…

I mean, in the NHS, they do this and they call it pathways. What’s your pathway through the NHS? Well, we know if you’re going to have that done, you also need this done. So let’s start them both at the same time. And it could dramatically reduce the amount of time but more importantly, in the NHS case, it’s a patient satisfaction. But from a business point of view, it’s also more efficient and therefore more profitable. And if customers are happy and you’re making more money, isn’t that what we’re all trying to do?

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (20:32)

get me going on the NHS at the moment. That all sounds very theoretical to me and doesn’t seem to be applying in practice.

Kevin Harrington (20:35)

Yeah, you should use one of these speech changes so you sound like you’re not Australian when you phone them up. ⁓

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (20:45)

Well, maybe that’ll help. knows?

Yeah, no, this best to leave that right there before I get in too much trouble. But we need to have a look at our business as a system. And what are the best ways? Because as a business owner, well, ultimately, what are you looking for? You want you want a profitable business because, well, Everyone who’s running a business needs a business to be profitable so they can reinvest in the business

⁓ to grow and service more clients and solve more problems for the people that they solve problems for. And ⁓ your business won’t be around if it’s not profitable. So your clients want you to be profitable as well. How do you be profitable? Well, You need to have an efficient operations. And The more efficient you are, the more you consistently deliver the outcome in the same way. So if your systems and your workflow processes are designed to produce a certain outcome,

hopefully that’s the outcome that you want for your clients to have and it’s a desirable outcome. Then you may as well systemize it so that every time that process is performed, it happens the same way and that gives you reliable results. Once you’ve got that happening, you can then analyze your process and go, what if I change this? What if I tweak this? Is there a better way of doing things since we designed the process to either make us more efficient

or make us or produce a better result for us? And you can only do that once you’ve got something documented and written down and an agreed standard way of doing things that is followed every single time it’s delivered. And the only way it’s going to get followed every single time is that if everyone understands the importance of it and has been trained in following the process and yet people will only follow it if they understand why it is done a certain way. We’ve got intelligent, capable workforce.

and employees, they want to go, well, why am I doing this step? I can see that this step helps there and it produces this output for the next person. No worries. I get it. I understand it. When when they just being told, you need to do it this way because I told you to, it doesn’t inspire them and motivate them to want to follow the process because they don’t see the purpose. They don’t see the need what how it’s benefited. So I think there’s some cultural and commercial reasons for systemizing the business that.

When trained and everyone understands the why behind it, ⁓ they can get behind it and will deliver the value that everyone’s looking for. And that value is not only shows up in profit at the end of the process, but it shows up as being easier and removing friction along the way.

Kevin Harrington (23:28)

There’s an extra benefit as well, isn’t there, Daryl, which is the cherry on the cake, I guess, is that some customers will say either verbally or through an email or through a tender process, which many SMEs are having to respond to tenders, they will say, how do you do this? What is your process to ensure things arrive properly, blah, blah, blah, whatever it might be. And…

If you just go and write down off the cuff how you do it, I tell you now, it won’t sound very convincing. Yeah. But if you can reply same day to a customer asking a question and go, well, here we go, here’s the headlines of it. If you want to see the rest of the detail, happily to share with you, but it’s company confidential and et cetera, but this is how we do it. They’ll go, wow, quick response. They know what they’re doing. They’ve got a process.

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (24:02)

Are you gonna miss pizzas and all because it’s not methodical?

Kevin Harrington (24:24)

they’re going to be great to deal with.

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (24:24)

Yep.

Here’s the names of the documents of our workflow, for example, or our procedure numbers or however you’ve structured it in your business. And you’ve just reminded me because, and this is my engineer kicking in from old days. And I remember when designing systems, engineering systems, you only ever had a system when you had some sort of feedback mechanism. Because a system, and I remember when we did all our learning was around ⁓ a thermostat, effectively.

Kevin Harrington (24:34)

Yeah, yeah.

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (24:53)

you had an input which was the current temperature and you’d set the desired temperature. You would apply a process that would either heat or cool, depending on the difference with those temperatures. It would come out at the end of the process after the heating or cooling had happened, take another measurement and check with the desirable. So that’s your feedback loop. And it’s exactly the same in these workflow systems that we’re referring to for managing the workflows through your business. You apply a process.

set up a new client file, complete a project for a client. You then have a feedback mechanism and go, has everything been done as per the spec of the project upfront, for example, have all the steps being followed? Yes. Deliver to the client. No, go through the cycle again, fix it up, do what you need to do, deliver it to the client. But then when you’ve got good monitoring and feedback mechanisms, which is so much easier now with when we’ve got some digital platforms and systems.

we can really monitor the effectiveness of our processes and how many times errors are occurring or misstates or where the blockages are and the bottlenecks. We have so much more visibility with these digital tools to be able to make our systems even more effective.

Kevin Harrington (26:12)

I’m the noise from the man doing the building work next door is a roofing company. I know him. And I can guarantee you he’s not asking everyone ⁓ how they do things. He’s just telling them he’s a great bloke, but his business won’t be scaling hugely. But ⁓

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (26:27)

Well, that’s a classic owner dependent business, isn’t it? Every single decision and answer has got to go through the owner. How many screws do want me to put in this piece?

Kevin Harrington (26:29)

Of course.

Yeah,

of course. But what you’re talking about is, it really does make a difference. it’s the application you need to have throughout it is asking questions and asking questions after questions after questions, being nosy, finding out, getting feedback. after you’ve done a, if your job, if your business is delivering big jobs, substantial pieces of work,

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (26:49)

Yeah.

Kevin Harrington (27:04)

We make a mistake sometimes doing a post-mortem just looking at things when they didn’t go to plan. We should also be looking at the jobs that went exceptionally well, where the customer’s already saying they want more work done. We should actually be reviewing the first thing we did with them and say, how could we have done better? What did we do well? How could we have done better? What are we gonna learn or change from this or recommend? And it’s, you only get that by asking the questions and be bold, ask the customer, don’t do a…

a yes or no would you recommend us type email, talk to them over a cup of coffee. If they’ve got a problem, wouldn’t you like to know about it, solve it and move on.

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (27:42)

Yeah.

Yeah, that recommended question, I think, has really grown stale now. ⁓ Why? Yeah, exactly. And it’s great tool. So where are we at, Kevin? How do we wrap this up? think we’ve got, if you want to get scalable growth for your business, if you want to avoid just having a look at what corporates do and falling down that corporate trap and ending up with some sort of bureaucratic control-based business.

Kevin Harrington (27:50)

Net Promoter Score.

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (28:14)

Yeah, which is the antithesis of what people love about being in an SME. We want a business instead that has scalable growth, because if you’re not growing, you’re going. So how do we create scalable growth? Well, we need to systemize and structure our business so that it’s not dependent on you as an owner for every single decision in the business, because that’ll just end up consuming more and more hours and you’ll get limited by the number of hours you’ve got. So we need a structure in place that’s systemized and automated.

What are the four systems you need? Well, the first one is you want a marketing system. You want a marketing system that generates and provides the right type of leads to your business at a known rate that you can turn on and off. They then want a talent machine. You want to make sure you’ve got the right number of people and capacity, not just people, but capacity that’s trained and capable to match the amount of demand that’s being generated.

Then you want primary workflows. Primary workflows then use that capacity and tap into the demand generated and make sure that everything goes through and everything is delivered exactly as was promised and as per the expectations that were set. And we’ve got to set the expectations. And then the fourth system we want is an agile management system or some sort of management system such as EOS that

creates and has a management team that leads the business and drives the business at that scalable growth at the growth rate, driving the business towards the vision that the founders have set for the business. Those four systems will ensure scalable growth.

Kevin Harrington (29:54)

Yep, spot on completely agree. And I my added bonus point around this would be you’re not a one man band, you’re not a corporate. Learn from when you were a one man band about being agile and in touch with your customers. Learn from the corporates about why do they need all this stuff, but don’t do it like them. Keep it simple and stick to the four things Darrell that you mentioned there as a start point. We help people

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (30:13)

Yeah.

Kevin Harrington (30:22)

Day in, day out do that. It’s what fabric does, helps people manage their businesses better and grow them and maximize the value. If any of it sounds confusing, shout and we’re the people.

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (30:35)

Brilliant. Kevin, as always, thanks for sharing your business insights with us today.

Kevin Harrington (30:41)

Thank you, Darryl. Talk soon.

Darryl Bates-Brownsword (30:43)

Cheers.